Anonymous replies
Jun. 2nd, 2005 09:23 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
grim23I ordinarily welcome anonymous replies to my lj, because of people who cannot or will not respond, for whatever reason. I often learn much from people who do not feel safe communicating with me in person, by using this medium. I have been thoughtfully taught many lessons by people who know and care enough to throw stones and nerf balls to help me grow and become aware.
So, O Muse and Fury, what do you have to teach me? It's obvious that you have an axe to grind, because of your statement that "[my] particular brand of Patriarcial Man-Over is what has fucked the world so royally", and that the "only way out is to knock off the John Wayne Samari crap and be GENUINE," and, "[h]aving said that I personally believe the Modern American Man is incapable of doing so". Hmmm. I don't expect anyone else but myself to believe in my honor, and not everyone in my life is a damsel in distress, and many of the women (and men) in my life are companions. I do believe that no one should ever be stranded, and we should all help each other out when needed, when we can. I define genuineness as being authentic and sincere, and, had you done more that 'peeked' and actually read this journal closely, it would have been obvious that that is what I am striving to do, contrasting your opinion of male incapability.
You are correct that I did not know who you were, then. I believed you were someone else. I was referring to the other anonymous poster (who I am fairly sure I know who she is) and gently validating her presence in both her and my learning, to others on my list who were concerned with the tone and content, and context of the situation.
Your motivation to post, being "[I] broke the heart of someone I DO care about, and moreso, that ritual disagreement led to the loss of my spiritual community", I am very curious about. I was unaware that I am responsible for your spiritual community, and also unaware that the person whose heart I broke required your intervention. Have you asked that particular person if this is what she wants? Perhaps you should communicate with her.
I continue to welcome anonymous posts. *bow*
Peace,
Grim
So, O Muse and Fury, what do you have to teach me? It's obvious that you have an axe to grind, because of your statement that "[my] particular brand of Patriarcial Man-Over is what has fucked the world so royally", and that the "only way out is to knock off the John Wayne Samari crap and be GENUINE," and, "[h]aving said that I personally believe the Modern American Man is incapable of doing so". Hmmm. I don't expect anyone else but myself to believe in my honor, and not everyone in my life is a damsel in distress, and many of the women (and men) in my life are companions. I do believe that no one should ever be stranded, and we should all help each other out when needed, when we can. I define genuineness as being authentic and sincere, and, had you done more that 'peeked' and actually read this journal closely, it would have been obvious that that is what I am striving to do, contrasting your opinion of male incapability.
You are correct that I did not know who you were, then. I believed you were someone else. I was referring to the other anonymous poster (who I am fairly sure I know who she is) and gently validating her presence in both her and my learning, to others on my list who were concerned with the tone and content, and context of the situation.
Your motivation to post, being "[I] broke the heart of someone I DO care about, and moreso, that ritual disagreement led to the loss of my spiritual community", I am very curious about. I was unaware that I am responsible for your spiritual community, and also unaware that the person whose heart I broke required your intervention. Have you asked that particular person if this is what she wants? Perhaps you should communicate with her.
I continue to welcome anonymous posts. *bow*
Peace,
Grim
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axes
Date: 2005-06-03 09:35 am (UTC)Since then the "elders" - high priestess and her right hand man - have not spoken to me and I have not been included in any of the events.
At that time you were unable to be the companion/brother you had to be the protector. Sadly this plugs right straight into the parts of my brain that have been struggling against f#*)ing authoritarian men all my life.
The other person will identify herself as she desires it is not my place.
sorry I'm not stable at the moment. Life is too full of contradictions: what I sense vs what the status-quo demands.
more
Date: 2005-06-03 09:53 am (UTC)b: You got that Fury bit didn't you? Fury = avengers of sins against the Mother. The whole Muse thing was a folly, a happyjoyjoy way to reunite the women who bonded deeply as Furies. By the way I did "go along" and did not share that little bit of info with the women I knew wold drop out. In hindsight I should have just walked away and let 'yall have your ritual invoking Apollo's Mastery Over Women with six fewer Muses.
c: You are not "responsible" for the loss of my community; you were more a catalyst and we all get that role. I've missed it tremendously but I must remind myself that if indeed the core of that community cannot see these patterns of Man Power Over then who needs them.
Under my layer of aging-woman-angst I am much wiser than I act. Maybe as time progresses it will show. Call me when I'm 86.
Re: more
Date: 2005-06-03 12:42 pm (UTC)Why do you care so much about a community that obviously does not share your same values? I would think it a relief that such a catalyst showed you the real community and the way out.
~TigressSky~
Re: more
Date: 2005-06-07 09:23 am (UTC)So of course my spiritual growth has continued in the 2-3 years I've been away. I'm edging back in only socially as I mentioned, because I do not choose to "worship" with a hierarchial group. My own ego plays a role in that: I want to be able to share my insights!
So it's not a "relief," it's been a loss and a mourning. I thought my word was respected. It turns out that, not unlike the Native Americans unable to see the approaching ships from Europe, I was dealing with people to whom the concept was so foreign they couldn't see it at all.
Re: more
Date: 2005-06-04 08:39 am (UTC)Glad to see that my post about the "Hero" provided such thought provoking discussion.
Re: more
Date: 2005-06-04 04:56 pm (UTC)My understanding is that Grim includes me in his "community" and potentially even on some level in his "spiritual" community. I have no problem with him working on his transformation. I'm still working on mine. I think that's a condition of life. All I personally hope to see in humans transforming is a genuine desire to continue the process, regardless of whether it's currently causing pleasure or pain.
Perhaps part of Grim's challenge is to find an appropriate balance between those ritual heavy systems you mentioned, others that you didn't mention but that I know give him comfort (Buddhism, Taoism, etc.) -- and the more sponanteous and visceral sources of wisdom.
Re: more
Date: 2005-06-05 10:49 am (UTC)It sounds to me like, in addition to having an axe to grind, you have/had an expectation of how it looks to you for someone to have completed transformation. I agree with Darklady, transformation is a condition of life. Who are we to judge when another's transformation is complete? If life is one transformation after another, only the person in question can judge whether they are done with one and working on another. Apollo may have died, but since then, Grim in all his archetypes and roles, and even Samuel (!), have had transformations that only he would know about or understand.
I appreciate all you've said, Muse and Fury. It's given me a bone to pick with him myself. And, it's given you an outlet for something you've obviously needed to say for some time. May you heal from this exchange as well.
Re: more
Date: 2005-06-07 09:16 am (UTC)I have/had no expectation of Grim to have "completed transformation." I'm 15 years older than he is and don't expect anyone to "complete transformation" at any point in their existence in this life or the next. We're here to evolve.
Actually all my blithering is not so much about Grim as about the condition between men and women in our culture. Grim's focus on Honor and Heroism and the Need to Protect might come from his heart but I believe he (and Many other men in this culture) do not see that these things can create a power-over situation with women that does not allow them equal footing.
If the balance of masculine and feminine - the yin/yang symbol if you will - is truly a goal it needs to be explored without a bunch of men freaking out! Ah in my dreams.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-03 11:49 am (UTC)When people are talking, listen carefully to what they are saying. For often what they are saying says more about the person themselves than the ones they are talking about.
ok fine
Date: 2005-06-06 08:29 am (UTC)As to the Spiritual community - anon above, thanks for validation. The group in question does not operate via consensus and cannot see what Starhawk refers to in "Truth or Dare" where she speaks of unlearning behavior patterns:
The fundamental right of consensus is for all people to be able to express themselves in their own words and of their own will. The fundamental responsiblity of consensus is to assure others of their right to speak and be heard. Since our society provides very little training in these areas, we have to unlearn many behavior patterns in order to practice good consensus process (see "Overcoming Oppressive Behavior," in this handbook). Consensus does not mean that everyone thinks that the decision made is the most efficient way to accomplish something, or that they are absolutely sure it will work. What it does mean is that in coming to that decision, no one felt that her or his position on the matter wasn't considered carefully. Hopefully, everyone will think it is the best decision; this often happens because, when consensus works properly, collective intelligence does come up with better solutions than could individuals.
I should have walked away; should=I wish I had the balls to do it.
Samuel, my humble apologies for using you as scapegoat. You were catalyst for me for sure. I would welcome a conversation if it is at all possible, I would really LOVE to believe that it is possible for a man in the year 2005 to actually begin to see where his behavior patterns are running counter to the progression of the human race.
Re: ok fine
Date: 2005-06-06 08:15 pm (UTC)I wish you the best in communicating with this spiritual community you mention. Maybe you should share this with them as well. Of course, the group using consensus as a method of decision making first must agree that consensus is the way they want to make decisions.
Re: ok fine
Date: 2005-06-06 10:15 pm (UTC)Soooooooooooooooooo social gatherings maybe, ritual probably not something I'll jump up to do with them unless I know one of the women in the community wrote it. Sexist? Probably. As I see it the scale is pretty bloody unbalanced one way so we gotta load up on the other to get to center.
My $0.2.
Starhawk's "Truth or Dare" and "The Twelve Swans" both have excellent passages on consensus building. Also, a Reclaiming group is forming in Corvallis; it's an intersting construct to spirituality. I like that there is no hierarchy and that ritual is consensual and often spontaneous.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-07 03:33 pm (UTC)It certainly provoked yet another good discussion, although perhaps not exactly all about me. My journal often seems to be about others and their influences, and who influence them. Please understand that I am not angry, and I am open to change and growth, from many people, including those who remain anonymous. I would love a conversation, and I'm usually available for good coffee. Please Tribe me, if you wish. :>
Thank you for the lessons, all posters. *bow*
Grim
not sure what subject is
Date: 2005-06-08 09:16 am (UTC)* I am not angry at you either what would be the point
* IMHO you're not getting it: this did start to be about you but was rapidly deflected into being about me and my shortcomings which were proven by my pointing out the things I did about you
SO
I don't think you get it yet but you are young. Smile.
A psychologist friend of mine believes that men in our culture have a sense of Entitlement which creates a Lot of the problems in relationships and society. (Now DO NOT go off on me about "women have problems too" I didn't say they didn't damn it) It is, of course, something of which they are not aware, because it is a habit...
...or if you've seen "What the Bleep," an addiction. We all have them. I'm addicted to feeling like I'm on the outside looking in. The peptides synch up with the receptors to feed that feeling of Oh Poor me Nobody loves me even enough to take FREE tomato plants from me. Sigh.
SO ALL I'm trying to do, Grim, is point this out. Is it my job? WHO the BLEEP KNOWS? Maybe I'm addicted to being the freaking Big Sister who just wants the little ones to Get the Clue so we can coexist happily.
(OK folks before you jump: no I don't have ALL the damned clues and I hear tell there are men in the world who do not have that sense of entitlement. Let's hover in the gray area for a minute shall we maybe we'll see something new in the soup.)
Re: not sure what subject is
Date: 2005-06-10 02:16 pm (UTC)My journal entry did start out about me, and it did get deflected to being about you, but by others, as has happened quite frequently recently on my journal entries. I'm willing to learn.
It is harder to be deflected by others when having a conversation in person over good coffee. If you choose, I'd be honored.
Grim
ball in your court
Date: 2005-06-10 07:35 pm (UTC)overcoming sexism
Date: 2005-06-10 08:30 pm (UTC)from Starhawj's Reclaiming site
Undoing Sexism
(modified to fit this journal space)
by Lynx Adamah
There is a commonly held belief that sexism, as well as other "isms" like racism and homophobia, don't exist in progressive communities. Unfortunately, this simply isn't true.
While most of us are liberal, open-minded, and well-intentioned folks, the reality is that we all have some work to do freeing ourselves from old, deeply rooted beliefs and feelings towards other groups of people....It would be nearly impossible for us as individuals raised in this very oppressive and dehumanizing culture to not have recorded at least some of these messages, somewhere within us.
While it's not our fault that we struggle with such messages, it is each individual's responsibility to take on the work of eliminating oppressive behavior and transforming the beliefs. To effectively move forward in our struggle as humans to end all oppressions, it is crucial that we be willing to name these oppressions and speak openly and honestly about them.
What is sexism?
Sexism is any mistreatment of women, ranging from violence against women, to the treatment of women as inferior, to the objectification of women. Any time a women is treated in any way other than as a brilliant, powerful, respected human being, it is sexism.
When women do not stand up for themselves, tolerate abusive behavior from men, mistreat other women, or deny their own intelligence, internalized sexism is occurring. After being systematically bombarded with sexist misinformation, many women internalize these messages, start believing them, and act out of this hurt place. The more women free themselves from internalized sexism, the less power and impact men's sexism directed at us will have.
Thankfully, in our community, most forms of overt sexism are not present - violence against women, sexist language, sexual coercion, male domination. So many men in our community are incredibly loving, kind, open-hearted, generous, strong and gentle, compassionate, caring, expressive - beautiful models of what is possible. While we are rarely faced with men perpetrating overt forms of sexism - though this does occasionally happen -- sexism in its more subtle forms is actually a fairly common occurrence.
Subtle Sexism
Some of the subtle forms that sexism can take include:
men yelling at women
interrupting women
not listening to women or taking women seriously
making women repeat "no"
men always speaking first and/or for the longest amount of time
not fully supporting women on our path to empowerment because it feels threatening to men
Even though these forms of sexism are not life-threatening, they are still damaging to women. They get in the way of women having big, full and empowered lives. They affect our self-respect and confidence. All forms of sexism are to be taken seriously and actively campaigned against. To ignore subtle sexism is to give up on women's liberation.
see part II
Re: overcoming sexism part II
Date: 2005-06-10 08:33 pm (UTC)Settling for Less
There is a way in progressive communities that we "settle," both as women and as men. We're so grateful that we're not subjected to overt forms of sexism, and that men here are more loving and open-hearted than the general population. We've stopped going after more for ourselves and from our men. We don't really talk about sexism. We let a lot of "undesirable" behavior go.
We need to talk about sexism. If we as a community and as individuals desire to grow, heal, and become truly empowered, it is crucial that we be willing to address a real and disempowering inequity among us.
We're not doing our beloved brothers any favors by not challenging them on their sexism. By naming and calling them on it, we give them a chance to identify an oppressive pattern, to work on it, and truly transform it. By ignoring it, we leave them stuck with a harmful pattern that serves only to diminish their humanity and their chances for real human connection. No man truly wants to be oppressive. When women are complacent around sexism, settling and putting up with it, we end up only perpetuating our own oppression. The reality is that sexism affects all of us.
SO Grim do you see anything in there that resonates back to the conversations we had about our roles in that ritual? It is important to me to be understood on this issue. It got turned into what an emotional midgit I am and I had a bloody legitimate issue.
There is no point in face to face over coffee unless you can read this and at minimum see where I'm coming from. Otherwise we'll end up in the same conversation from 2-3 years ago all over again.
*nod*
Date: 2005-06-21 12:25 pm (UTC)A good and wise person gave me a lengthy paper on Male Privilege. If anonymous or non-anonymous people would like a copy, I'd be happy to send it to you. And yes, I'd like coffee with you, O Muse and Fury. :>
Grim
Re: *nod*
Date: 2005-06-23 09:52 pm (UTC)Re: *nod*
Date: 2005-06-27 01:08 pm (UTC)Grim
I took that paper to heart as my white privilege, blue eyed blonde hair White right?
Date: 2005-06-27 05:20 pm (UTC)It comes down to denial *damn even naked I am lying* to the world face, and deny anything is wrong. From the child of an alcoholics point of view he shares the fact that we {yep, I feel this part deeply} become little liars keepers of denial. So easily slipping into the role of trickster, the cheerful required when Father is drunken, we easily become the liars to all the outside world. If you can deny so easily the truths to home and deny family ~ you can lie about feeling anything. ie: 14 woman left me and 2 beat me up, I'm fine, or I'm bleeding from everyone of my pores, butt I'm fine. We must realize that we are not 4 years old anymore and must find sometimes for ourselves that the King and Warrior are still within our understanding. The King in all people be the part of each of us that determines and can decide. Within each of us the Warrior be the keeper of the boundaries. We must be concious of the fact that as generations pass away both male and female become less and less aware of these two key elements that used to be a major part of day to day life. Bonding and separation become lost in the translation of sexism ~ not only does bonding slip away most of us cannot handle the separation more often. Grim you are very inspirational to my bratt, understands easier the idea of you as becoming aware and then sharing yourself as mentor to any willing to reach out for it. I just wanted it known you are one of those older men I am honored to have the ability to acknowledge. I appreciate the way you choose to continue your own learning and pass that on to the few looking to figure it out. Even for the female bratt pinkk you are the male mother aspect he speaks of. last thought an angry feminist only experienced the temperamant of the father not the teachings, this is my experience and I know thats part of why pinkk bratt exists. My two sense for you, all love pinkk
Re: I took that paper to heart as my white privilege, blue eyed blonde hair White right?
Date: 2005-07-01 03:07 pm (UTC)*deep bow*
Love, Grim