A question.

[grim23]

So, while drinking Turkish coffee with my BF while in Raleigh before we went to a biker rally, she said that I am often unaware that I sometimes make requests of people in a way that makes it difficult for them to say no or ask for what they need, and set their own boundaries with me. She said this may come across as manipulation or taking advantage of people. At the same time, she also said that once I am aware of a boundary, I am very good at honoring it.

She also said my greatest quality was challenging others to grow and develop.


I welcome all comments, anonymous or not, regarding her insights into me. Anything. I do not question her perception of me. What I'm looking for is other feedback about how I do these things. I am in NC for a year, and I have a chance to grow while I am away from who I was when I was in OR. I'm working on improving my self, especially my communication with others.

Thank you.

Comments

you asked for it

[sienna555.livejournal.com]

In my experience with you, it has not been often that we ask each other for anything more than time. I have never felt 'manipulated' by you, but also I'm not the type to mince words when I have requests to make or boundaries to draw, so maybe I'm not the best example. There have been times when our communications has been intense enough to get the attention of my other connections, which some could say would be a manipulation of my energy, but it's always under my own Will.

HOWEVER...What I have noticed in our communications is an air of privelege about you, a feeling that you expect all of your requests to be granted, as if you don't hear the word "no" very often. A sort of "invisible knapsack" of rights that you could only understand if you were alive in another person's body. Like someone smaller, someone of a minority race or gender, or someone deaf, blind, handicapped or weak.

I have observed, also, that you take setbacks and defeats harder than it seems necessary, and you take unusual amounts of energy to put yourself back to "right". That could be an indicator of how badly you berate yourself for failure, or it could be an indicator of how high up you gotta go to feel "right" again.

What does this have to do with what the BF said? If you are in a pattern of privelege, and you are not used to hearing 'no', and you have physical stature, good health, & are of the "ruling" class (face it, whiteboy, you're 'normal' by anyone's standards), then it hurts a lot worse when you don't get your way. Which is why you might tend to try to manipulate requests in such a way as to not hear "no".

The higher you are when you fall, the harder you hit when you land. so to stop yourself from falling in the first place, you're unconscious communication methods go into automatic mode.

My challenge to you: Ask a black friend, or a handicapped friend this same question, whether you seem to communicate in such a way as to take advantage or manipulate the situation. If they won't confirm that pattern, then you might wanna focus on the gendered attributes of your communications.

From what I can tell, the BF and I are both short white chicks. We have the same vantage point, so to speak, so we'll confirm the same patterns.

Another short white chick

[jic]

What I'll echo is this: that once you are aware of a boundary, you are good at honoring it.

It's difficult for me to speak to the former, since you were most prominent in my life at a time when setting boundaries was a challenge for me anyway. Nevertheless, I have always had the impression that (regardless of relative rating) your convenience was the most determining factor in whether our paths would intersect.

I'm also a person who used to state plans rather than make requests, and I used to leave off the parts that say, "What I'd like is [my plan], which is how it would be if the world were populated by my minions." As a purely mechanical technique, it might be worth taking "What I'd like is this: [state ideal]. Does that work for you?" out for a spin. Perhaps soften it even more. Some people don't hear the "what I'd like is" when it is unspoken and assume one is giving orders rather than suggesting plans, which may put them (us) in the position of feeling unnecessarily confrontational when presenting conflicting preferences.

For more on various invisible knapsacks, check out these:
The essay that started it all: Peggy McIntosh on White Privilege
Elizabeth Hanson's list of Heterosexual Privileges
darkdaughta on the privilege of Sexual Conservatives (This one you might see yourself on the other side of. The light text is kind of hard to read against the not-work-safe background, but pressing Ctrl-A on the keyboard will fix both issues.)
B. Deutsch on Male Privilege (also here)
a list of privilege checklists compiled by Ampersand, including some of the above, and discussion.

[jharma.livejournal.com]

While I admire the strength it takes to even ask this question of folks, not to mention the strength it will take to remain open while "hearing" the responses, I'm not sure I'm the right person to ask regarding this. However, since you found the strength to ask, the least I can do is find the strength to respond as myself.

I will give this some thought, if you don't mind, and return soon with a response.

Namaste,

Jharma

Re: you asked for it

[voluptasia.livejournal.com]

Thank you, Sienna - you've clarified something I struggled to explain to him - I (for lack of a better word) called it something of a 'celebrity quality' - white male privilege is much clearer in describing what I was trying to say. Your insight about failure - how he takes it, how he recovers from it, is also right on.

One short white chick to another -

The BF =)

My Honest Opinion...

[viktormaddok.livejournal.com]

Yes, you do have a way of asking people of things that leaves them wanting to carry out your requests.

This is a sign of leadership. You don't have to TELL anyone what to do. You can ask in such a way that inspires compliance.

Personally, I have never been in a situation where I was afraid to ask you for anything I need, so I can't form an opinion on that.

Is this manipulative?? Of course it is. But wether that manipulation is an intrusion upon someone else's will or not, or wether you are taking advantage of someone is a matter of what you request of them, and being who you are, I have a hard time believing that you would ask something of someone that is against their nature, even if not quite alligned with their demeanor. SO yes, you are very respectful of established boundaries.

And she is right about the quality she mentioned. You DO have an uncanny ability to inspire growth and development in the people you are close to.

As long as you are mindful of these traits, then you will do good things with them.
It's whan you forget that you inspire compliance in the way you make your requests that it might be percieved as a negative. Although, the way others percieve what you do is only partially yours to control.

[sexypink-lips.livejournal.com]

What I notice is that you don't hear what you don't want to hear, which can be said for many of us in this world. The comment about privilege reminds me of my class I took in June. And how to understand someone that isn't the same as ourselves we need to look at what makes us privileged to see how to help those that don't have the same privilege.

As a white male you have privilege that I as a white female does not have, but I as a white female have privilige that a black male does not. To look at this is tough we are so prone to look at how we are not privilege, because this makes us feel less quilty of what we have and others are not allowed to have, that it is hard to see what privilege we have.

Good luck on your journey.

A question.

[siduriana.livejournal.com]

My personal observation is that there seems to be a lack of awareness of the boundry of "other." In my experience of you as a friend I have noticed that often you do not "see" me. You see only your projection of me. You stand one step removed from being fully present with me and honoring/validating my unique individuality. I see the fear of intimacy within that. I do not believe this is what you want or that you wish to trample over other peoples boundaries, but by being one step removed from being absolutely in the moment-open-and-vulnerable with the "other" you remain always and irrevocably distant. I have wondered why you hide behind your ego and "rolls" so often when I also see the incredibly compassionate and lonely man behind the wall.

I have a suggestion for you. It is one given to me and it has helped me open up: try sitting with emotional discomfort for a while, become familiar with it, listen to what it is teaching you. Don't try to resolve it, solve it. Just accept it as a part of being. It is probably the most ackward thing I will ever do, but it helps me become more present.

Good luck!
T

[tigresssky.livejournal.com]

Being a tall white chick mayhaps I have had different experiences with you. lol

What I notice in my interaction with you is that you focus on the logical progression of things, the naturally associated masculine energy that is awake and focuses on the actions and more importantly the outcomes. This leaves you to stifle the energy that is simply intuitive and flowing, the naturally associated feminine energy, that which is unstructured and unpredictable. (I HATE seperating the energies into Male Female because it is such a restrictive labeling stereotype that I do NOT believe in but it will have to do.)

In this seperation of energies those who come to you with that unstructured energy, not focused on the outcome as much as much as they are focused on the feelings tend to find themselves feeling inadequate. They find themselves feeling like they need to do what you say to create the expected outcome mainly because they had no expectations themselves. This in turn may lead them to step over boundaries they normally wouldn't to reach the goal simply because they didn't realize there was a goal until interacting with you.

For example, one might just want to sit and have coffee with you with no mind as to what the topic should be, just to enjoy sitting with you and being with you. You on the other hand come with a plan, something to chat about, something you know they need to discuss and suddenly and subtly there is a direction and a goal and that person sitting across from you is talking about some subject they would have rather left alone.

This in itself is a double-edged sword, because as the BF points out you challenge others to develop and grow. Sometimes interacting with you leads one to realize boundaries they never knew they had and in turn leads them on a path to self-discovery.

For me, interactions have never felt munipulating, they have however at times felt challenging and sometimes when all I really wanted was to just be hugged and held I was made to look closer at what was bothering me and feel my fears well up. Ive never felt munipulated into going to these places with you though because I know you are safe and I would never allow myself to go there unless I wanted. I could however see those with less will power not having the ability to set the boundaries they need and ending up somewhere with you that they never wanted to go.

I have felt challenged with you and at times felt like I did not get the one thing I really needed from you, but I always feel like I do get many things from you. Most of the time I leave you feeling ten times more confident in my ability to go out and kick the worlds ass then I had when I arrived. *g*

~TigressKickingTheWorldsAssOneDumbBoyAtATimeSky~

[jharma.livejournal.com]

I have been thinking about this for the past few days, trying to find a way to put into words the point I want to get across without it sounding harsh. First off, I do agree with much of what is written here. But I don’t want to repeat what is already here. I have debated on whether I should even say what I’m about to say, knowing that there will be many who may disagree with me. But I’ve learned alot from you, much of what I learned I couldn’t have learned from any other, and I am forever grateful for your presence in my life. So I have decided to honor your honesty with some honesty of my own. Of course what follows is my impression, my insight, my thoughts. Feel free to take them with a grain of salt.

I’ve sat back and watched you, watched your interactions with others, and I’ve analyzed our interactions with each other as well. I do believe that you have the best of intentions in everything you do. I believe that the thought that you may be not hearing someone is eating at you, and I believe you will strive to grow from this, until you get to the point where you’re able to recognize and honor someone’s boundaries even if they are unable or unwilling to articulate them. I believe you have the heart of a healer, and you feel best about yourself when you’re helping someone else heal. I believe you will do whatever it takes to be the most effective healer you can be, including facing yourself. I admire you your strength.

One thing I’ve noticed, though, is you seem to be either unable or unwilling to set boundaries for yourself. I see you seeking to be the biggest, the baddest, the best at everything you do, often to your own detriment. I get the strongest impression that what others see as your being unable to hear the word “no” is really your attempt to prove something to yourself or to someone you feel has hurt you, something for which you have never been able to simply forgive yourself for and let go.

Sometimes it feels like you’re searching, sometimes it feels like your hiding, though I know not from what, except maybe yourself. It seems impossible for you to simply “Be” and I really believe that the answers you seek will come to you once you figure out how to do just that. Be.

You give off an intense energy. Sometimes, when in your presence, when talking with you, it’s hard to say no to that energy. Not necessarily because I’m too weak to set my own boundaries, rather it’s from my being unable to say no to someone seeking healing, no matter if it’s on a conscious or subconscious level. Often when talking to you, you would ask me a question, or bring up a subject, and your energy would feel completely opposite from your words.

It took me a while to realize it wasn’t because you were deliberately trying to manipulate anyone. It took me a while to realize that what you help others bring out in themselves is the very things you seek to bring out in yourself. What you do for others, you seek to do for yourself. And it took me a while to realize that you are usually unaware that you are doing it. What I thought was manipulative energy was really just your reaching out to yourself.

Bottom line, for all your studying, all your learning, all your struggles, all of the people you have helped, the one person you seem to be unable to reach is yourself. And I think that is sometimes misconstrued as your being unable to hear or accept the word “no.” Your persuasion, your “manipulative energy” is really you trying to convince yourself to see something, to face something, to prove something, and to let go of something. You’re not really all that different from the rest of us, truth be told.

You seek to be loved, and the love you seek lies within you, just waiting to be embraced, just waiting to be allowed to BE.

Again, you have my utmost respect, and I sincerely hope you know this is written with the purest of intentions.

Namaste,

Jharma

[mamagaea.livejournal.com]

You should let us comment on more entries. :P

I was wondering, what kind of psychologist do you want to be when you grow up? What will be your focus?

[grim23]

So noted. :>

When I grow older, I want to be a hospital-based clinical addiction neuropsychologist, assessing brain injury and dementias and cognitive function in the light of years of substance abuse for adults. I will probably also have a psychotherapy practice, working with people with a trauma history, particularly sexual abuse and domestic violence, and cult abuse survivors.

Why do you ask?

[mamagaea.livejournal.com]

I started PSU this term and one of my classes is Counseling, and I was wondering how much counseling training you had and what type of courses were involved. My career will involve addiction counseling. I want to be a crisis intervention and drug and alcohol abuse prevention specialist in high schools and middle schools, but I spoke with one of the grad ta's in my counseling class who is a career counselor and she was saying that it's a difficult field to get into because they aren't staples at schools (even though they should be in this day and age.)

My focus at this point is Communications. I am focusing on small group and interpersonal communications with a minor in psychology because I feel that expert communications and listening skills is extremely important in the counseling field. They should offer more communication courses for the counseling curriculum. I think someday they should offer a BA in Counseling instead of just Psychology. At least there are masters degrees in counseling psychology.

So, anyway, I was just looking for some guidance on the best way to go about getting my career in motion in the most effective way possible. Besides, I think it's cool hearing about what other psychology nuts like to do. :)

[grim23]

I've had undergraduate, graduate, and doctoral level communication classes, although theory and clinical practice is very different than real life. Often they aren't very useful, as they repeat theory which may or not apply.

Career in motion? Job shadow, Volunteer. Network. Find out exactly what you want by actually observing and then actually doing it. Find out if that is really what you want. Then, get letters of rec from those who watched you learn. Use those letters to get entry level jobs, and then work up. Never turn down an opportunity to learn new therapies, new techniques, and new systems.

From one psych nut to another---good luck. *smile*

Re: you asked for it

[grim23]

Hmmm. I do have an expectation of my requests being granted, and I do sometimes take setbacks/defeat hard, which probably does impact my automatic communications. I'm working to figure out why I am not more detached to outcomes.

Speaking to both ethnic and disabled friends, I don't think it's that. Gender reaction is probably more accurate. Maybe unresolved stuff with female relationships?

Thank you, very much, for the lessons.

Re: you asked for it

[grim23]

Thank you for opening up this conversation. I can almost always count on you to challenge me and encourage me to learn about myself.

That's why you're the BF. I love you. :>

Re: Another short white chick

[grim23]

Hmmm. Interesting reading. I'd read the original white privilege paper. I have saved much of it to my laptop, a privelege into itself. I think I have become a bit more sexually conservative, myself, at least with interactions with others, especially female others.

I think you have good advice about ways to make requests rather than state plans...that was part of my automatic way of communicating, especially when I was dealing with a setback. Thank you very much for that.

[grim23]

Thank you.

Re: My Honest Opinion...

[grim23]

Ah! the first not-short-white-chick. *smile*

Thank you. You have good points, especailly that sometimes my ability to state plans could be seen as leadership rather than manipulation. I think those with a warrior mindset have fewer problems with boundaries.

I am learning things about how I communicate I hadn't considered before, and the way I sometimes state plans rather than make requests, espcially when I'm having a setback.

Your final point that the way others partially perceive me from their own perspectives is also a good one.

Thank you, again.

[grim23]

Your noticing that I do not hear what I don't want to hear and that many people in this world have this issue, is, I believe, very true. However, I'm striving to improve myself and communicate more clearly than that ... and so, I want to understand you. I think that is also a very valid point that I as a white male, have privilege and it is indeed not something I often think about.

Would you be OK with please giving me examples, especially when I didn't hear what I didn't want to hear? If you don't feel comfortable with re-posting on lj, would you be OK with calling me or emailing me? If you'd like, I can call or email you if you've a preference. Thank you.

Re: A question.

[grim23]

Hmmm. This may be true. Although I may be wrong, I don't feel as if I have ever had much of a deeper connection with you. I, upon reflection, have been afraid to connect with you, and my conversations with you have usually been fairly superficial and/or short, and occasionally where you set a boundary with me.

Especially so after our conversation where I asked if I could help you dress after your surgery because I knew you were sore and, you asked me to stop making innuendoes, and I said that I was merely trying to help, and you said that you presumed I was making a innuendo because I always did. That shut down much attempt at real communication because then it was easier to just stay in my role as 'visiting the roommate' and automatically communicating with you, one step removed.

I apologize; I'll try to do better. Thank you for the suggestion. I'm working on that very concept.

Thank you.

[grim23]

I have been, as you point out, too attached to outcome, especially with expending my energy to help people grow---and, as you say, may push boundary issues with others, especially those with less will, especially if they are unaware that there may be an outcome from our conversation.

Often, my conversation with others leads to an outcome---either a lesson for me or reinforcing something in my mind I have already learned that may be helpful for them, in my opinion. However, that may be something they didn't want or need or expect, thus, that makes it difficult for them to say no or ask for what they need, and set their own boundaries with me. I can see how this could come across as manipulation or taking advantage of people.

Thank you for the way you explained this to me, and for the feedback. I'm sorry I was not able to give you what you really needed at the time, and I'm glad I was able to help support you in other ways.

[grim23]

Thank you for your honesty.

Hmmm. Setting boundaries for myself, and driving myself to be better, is what I do best. However, that may be the problem. I do have a very hard time letting myself Be.

It took me a while to realize it wasn’t because you were deliberately trying to manipulate anyone. It took me a while to realize that what you help others bring out in themselves is the very things you seek to bring out in yourself. What you do for others, you seek to do for yourself. And it took me a while to realize that you are usually unaware that you are doing it. What I thought was manipulative energy was really just your reaching out to yourself.

Bottom line, for all your studying, all your learning, all your struggles, all of the people you have helped, the one person you seem to be unable to reach is yourself. And I think that is sometimes misconstrued as your being unable to hear or accept the word “no.” Your persuasion, your “manipulative energy” is really you trying to convince yourself to see something, to face something, to prove something, and to let go of something. You’re not really all that different from the rest of us, truth be told.

Yes! That's it!

However, I seem to have a hard time reaching myself. I am no different from anyone else, in that we are all connected and have flaws, but I have the most difficulty accepting myself for what I am, flaws and all. I am the first to admit I have work to do, and I drive myself to do it, and I teach what I learn to others to teach it to myself. THAT is the problem, and the blessing.

Ah. Thank you.

[jharma.livejournal.com]

You're welcome.

Jharma